The Franchise Scale Up Show with Guy Coffey
Welcome to The Franchise Scale Up Show hosted by Guy Coffey. Guy is an entrepreneur, franchise veteran, and co-founder of a successful franchise brand.
Join Guy as he dives into real-world stories, strategies, and insights from inspiring entrepreneurs, industry experts, and thought leaders.
Discover actionable advice on launching, scaling, and sustaining a meaningful business while thriving in life. From solo episodes breaking down simple, effective strategies to candid interviews uncovering challenges, breakthroughs, and success secrets, this podcast is your go-to for honest, practical guidance.
Whether you’re just starting out or scaling to the next level, The Franchise Scale Up Show will empower you to build a business, and life, you love.
The Franchise Scale Up Show with Guy Coffey
How Content Builds Franchise Trust Over Time with Joel Kleber of Jim’s Group
In this episode, I sat down with Joel Kleber from Jim’s Group in Australia — the world’s largest lawn and garden care franchise system — and we dug into something every emerging franchisor needs to understand:
Content is not a marketing expense. It’s a long-term asset that compounds trust and franchise sales.
Joel’s team didn’t grow Jim’s Group by changing the model. They grew it by building a transparent, founder-led content engine — and the numbers speak for themselves.
Key Takeaways
- Content compounds. A video you post today can still influence franchise buyers 3–6 years later.
- Long-form content builds trust faster than sales calls. Some buyers consume 20+ hours before discovery day.
- Transparency filters in better franchise candidates. The more honest you are, the higher-quality your leads become.
- Founder Q&A content wins. Organic, unscripted answers (even from a phone) outperform polished promos.
- AI is changing buyer behavior. Candidates now research through ChatGPT, Reddit, TikTok, and Facebook groups — content gives you control of the narrative.
Time Stamps
00:00 Introduction to TikTok's Impact on Franchising
00:12 Welcome to The Franchise Scaleup Show
00:53 Special Guest: Joel Kleber from Jim's Group
02:33 Joel Kleber's Journey with Jim's Group
04:07 The Power of Video Content in Franchising
06:27 Transparency and Authenticity in Franchising
09:33 Challenges and Misconceptions in Franchising
14:39 The Importance of Long-Form Content
20:24 The Power of Organic TikTok Content
21:30 Impactful Day on the Road Videos
21:52 Long-Form Podcasts for Franchise Education
23:18 Leveraging Content for Franchise Sales
28:24 The Role of AI in Franchising
28:51 Creating a Digital Twin with AI
33:14 AI's Impact on Customer Interaction
34:50 The Future of AI in Business
38:00 Final Thoughts and Farewell
If you’re in that 10–40 unit stage where growth feels exciting but chaotic, your content and systems have to start working for you — not the other way around.
Book your free Franchise Growth Strategy Call at guycoffey.com.
We’ll map your stage, your bottlenecks, and the content + franchise development system you need to scale without burning out or losing control.
Connect with Guy Coffey:
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/guycoffey
Website: www.guycoffey.com
Instagram: @guycoffey
YouTube: @guycoffey
I've had people in training saying they've come in from TikTok. Right? So that wouldn't have been unheard of three years ago. Right. So organic TikTok videos are being the thing that people are actually seeing to plant the seed. And then they come and look into us more and they literally tell me in training it was, I watched all the videos of Jim on TikTok where he answered my question or this and that. If you're an emerging franchise founder, you already know this. The jump from 10 to 100 units is where most brands stall out, not because the concept isn't strong, but because the founder is drowning in chaos. I'm Gee, coffee franchisor, franchisee, and growth strategist. I've been where you are and I know what it takes to build a brand that scales without burning out, selling out, or losing control. That's why I created the Franchise Scaleup Show. Every week I'll share the playbooks, the red flags, and the mindset shifts that separate the brands that stall from the ones that scale. So if you're serious about protecting your vision and multiplying your brand, hit subscribe right now. This is the Franchise Scaleup Show. I'm Gee, coffee. Let's get to work.
Guy Coffey:Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Franchise Scale Up Show with me Gee Coffee. But more importantly with my special guest today, Joel Kleber of Jim's group in Australia, who is doing amazing things with franchise development and growing that very large franchise group already. So welcome to the show, Joel. Joel. Thanks for
Joel Kleber:having me. Gee, much appreciated.
Guy Coffey:Yeah, I first, uh, saw you, uh, at an awards dinner in Sydney, Australia earlier this year where you were getting, um, a big, um, one of the franchise Executives of the Year award down there. And the gentleman next to me who I consider a friend, Doug Downer, leaned over and he said, this guy's gonna be global someday. I was like, oh, okay, good. Yeah. When he told me that, I was very
Joel Kleber:surprised. I was a bit, yeah, I was very surprised.
Guy Coffey:Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was his first reaction and, um, you know, and so I followed you ever since, and I think what you're doing there is cutting edge and really, really interesting. E even the way gyms has grown is very interesting. So if you wouldn't mind just. Sharing a little bit about yourself with, with the audience so that we can kind of get a context on who you are, where you came from, and then, then we'll get into the nitty gritty of like what you're doing now.
Joel Kleber:Yeah, no worries, Dean. Now thanks for that and thanks for telling me a bit about Pat Doug. I didn't know that. So, um, yeah, Doug's a massive, you know, person in the industry over here and you must well respect things to hear that. So I made my day and, um, you know, what was a big. Um, I did not, when I went out there, I did not think I was gonna win it at all. And, um, I, I said to my wife, 'cause we flew it from Melbourne and they told me, they gave me, oh, you should come up and, you know, you might be a fair chance. And then they got down to two and I'm thinking, oh, these guys made me come up all the way. And I'm not, you know, and then I got, that's a fair income. I had no, I was really, really shocked, but I was very, very lucky. And um, you know, it was a massive flute. But, um, yeah, look, I've been at gyms group for 15 years. For those who don't know, um, in America, gyms group is, um, well, the Gyms Mowing brand is actually the world's largest Mong and garden care franchisees, 2200 franchisees, or you might call 'em locations. And then from there we have all these different brands. So we have gyms, cleaning gyms, antennas, gyms is sort of known as doing everything. So the actual icon itself. Australia brand is a bit iconic, so it's a Jim's mind. It's really seen as an Australian brand. Everyone knows it, and everyone grew up with having a Jim's mind guy, you know, with their trailer come and do the lawn. So everyone's known for a very long time. There's a lot of nostalgia with it as well. And, um, I've been there at fifth for 15 years and, and, um, I went through a variety of roles. I started as a part-time, two day, um, paralegal actually. And, um, never planned on staying there, but I was doing my degree law commerce at the same time. And I sort of got stuck there. I was going in there, um, got really invested in the brand and sort of went from department to department where they needed help. So I went from being a paralegal to then going to our assurance brokerage and was there for four years fixing that up. And then went to our documents compliance department again and went to a bit of an operations role. And then from there I sort of did. Took over social media, video and marketing and made us a social media video machine internally when we didn't have one. And 2019. And when I did that, we had around 3,600 franchisees. And for, for my whole time, they were always between 3,200 to 3,600. We could never get more. And Jim was always getting frustrated. And then in 2019, we've gone from 3,600 to an hour, actually we're around 5,700, um, you know, around six years. So we've had a really big. Net positive growth and we haven't done anything different to our model. There hasn't been anything really different with our franchisors. What's the one difference for us was the video content, the online social media, transparent content model. And that was really much it. And um, yeah, so we looking forward to hopefully getting to 6,000 and keep progressing and improving. But, um. Yeah, it's been a really good, interesting journey. It's a unique place to work. Jims and everyone who knows Jims will know that, but, um, it's been very exciting. I get to work really closely with the founder, Jim Pein every day. And, um, you know, seeing how he works and watching him and learning from him has been really good as well.
Guy Coffey:Yeah, well, what a journey. I don't know if there's any CMO out there that came from the part-time paralegal path.
Joel Kleber:Yeah,
Guy Coffey:that's pretty rare.
Joel Kleber:I had no intention of doing marketing at all or anything like that. So, um, it's just what the business needed at the time. So, um, I was sort of put into places where, you know, he, he needed help here or whatever. So I'd go in there and I. Give a bit of effort and work and use some initiative was the main thing. Jim loves initiative, not enough employees these days use in initiative. So I was always bugging him saying We should be doing this with websites or things that leave in my area. And that sort of stuck out, stuck out to him. And those changes, we did improve things and then obviously that gives you a bit more trust and credits in the bank to do more and more and that sort of where, where it evolved from.
Guy Coffey:Right. Right. Well, yeah. What a, you, you got to work with him closely. And it's interesting for anybody that's new in franchising and starting out, that the path you're on in the beginning might not be the, the, the place you end up at the end, you know? It's, it's all taking on. That's right. Taking on. It's more fun that way as well. Challenges.
Joel Kleber:Yeah. It's more fun that way. You don't want it to be a predictable, right. Predictable sort of story, so Right.
Guy Coffey:I remember reading an article where you had gone from the paralegal part to taking on the, um, the insurance aspect of the business, having no insurance background, but ramped up really quickly and got that all shored up and then. Moved on to something else after that.
Joel Kleber:I'll tell you real quickly that that one game, which was quite funny, we had 13 staff and insurance at one time. It was bleeding money and then all of those staff except for one, quit. And then, um, it's a long story. And then, um, he had to get in this external person in which he did, and the guy's gone, well, who do I have? He think he thought he had like a team to do. And he goes, you got one person, Joel, which is there, which had no qualifications. So I had to get qualified really quickly. And from there we built it back up and then we turned it around probably in a space of a year to be doing pretty well. So, um. Where, where there's a problem or need in the business or sort of gone into the try and help as best as I can. And that, that's all's sort of evolved.
Guy Coffey:Great, great. Um, illustration for the, for the younger people in the audience, younger professionals is don't, don't be afraid to try new things. And especially now with, with all the act, you know. Uh, access we have to the world's knowledge and AI and things like that, you can kinda ramp up pretty quickly. Obviously insurance, you need certifications and licensing and things like that, but um, yeah, don't be shy about trying new things. The, the more broad your base in the beginning, you know, the more you can specialize later. That's why everything's just learning, right?
Joel Kleber:Everything's just learning new challenge you to learn new skills, you know how to answer phones or whatever it is. Um, so everything's a challenge and STAs to your skillset and gives you more, makes you more valuable.
Guy Coffey:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I mentioned that my, uh, I hear you got a little one in the background. Yeah. That's awesome because my, my, one of my main things is about, um, how franchising affects families and, uh, really increases the richness of life. Hmm. So, um. To have that input from your daughter is just great.
Joel Kleber:Yeah. Hopefully she doesn't do too much more, but she probably will.
Guy Coffey:It's okay. It's all right. Um, that's part of the journey. Tell us about, like, what I've noticed the most, and I've shared this with so many people, I'm, you know, I'm on a board and I've shared it with, uh, the CMO there. Is your model for video, particularly as founders or key people, and then, um, franchisees mm-hmm. As well and people from the franchisor team and how that builds trust. I think I've been a little bit liberal with, with a stat, but I Tell me if I, I'm right and if anybody, I've told this stat to, uh, if I was off, I apologize, but the, the overall lesson is still there. I think I read at one point you. Said that on average people that come to your discovery days is we'd call 'em here the final, mm-hmm. Step in the sales process. On average, people have watched 22 and a half hours of Jim's videos before they show up. So it's not a question of building trust in this last phase of a sales process. The trust is always there and it totally changes the sales dynamic.
Joel Kleber:Yeah, it's round about that for sure. They, they, they, some even watched a lot more. We've had, they've had people tell me they've watched a hundred hours or. 300 podcasts or whatever it is. And that would be more than, you know, 300 hours doing that. So everyone in training has watched videos and if they actually haven't watched the video, we generally, it's a big red flag for us because, um, we know they haven't done any research at all. So, um, and with us, for example, our franchisees isn't, you know, 200 grand, 300 grand, it's 20 to 30 grand. And you'd think more people would be less inclined to do research'cause of that amount of money, but it's generally the opposite. So that could be their life savings or this sort of all the money they've ever, they've ever had. So they tend to be, well, more researched than a lot of people that might be 200, 300 grand franchisees.'cause they've got maybe got a bit more business experience. They understand investing a little bit more. Mm-hmm. They, they don't maybe need all that stuff. But with, we found that at our level, um, yeah. The more content you have, the more people will consume just to validate that decision or their gut feel on wanting to do this. That it's need that extra reassurance to pull 'em along in the background. And that's why video's great is because you don't have to be involved with anything. It's just there. And they can consume at their own pace and they'll come back into you the whole time. And I think. I dunno what the average time is for all franchises, but I always hit a figure in Australia anyway, six to nine months before someone's having the idea to be a franchisee than actually starting. So what are you filling in that nine months? Right? So having all that content for them to consume can just fill that gap and build that trust with you. With you, and then they'll come to you with questions and hopefully it marries up to what's they're hearing and seeing online. But that's been, that's been the biggest thing for us. But yet they watch a lot of stuff and it's all different stuff too. It's not, um, just one thing. They're watching a variety of things as well, which I do find very interesting. This is a quick break to thank you for listening. Every week, we are getting more and more people listening to the show, and this growth is helping me to improve it and make it even more helpful to you. My intention for this show is to help more people win in business and life. To that end, I have a favor to ask. If you know of an entrepreneur that would benefit, please hit the share button and shoot them a text with the link back to the show. Make this a great day.
Guy Coffey:Okay. Yeah. So, um, for someone that's, you know, you. It doesn't have 5,000 units yet, and a of, you know, a, a media team or anything like that. I, you've, you've said it over and over again that you don't need all that to start out. No. Like, you could, you can have the basics and just put things out there, like, is it, how do you divide up the, the content? I'm sure you have a, a plan now, like it's gonna be. X percent franchisee, testimonial kind of stuff. It's gonna be X percent, uh, you know, the franchisor behind the scenes or the team or things like that. Hmm. But in the beginning, what should some, someone's got say 10 units or 20 units and they really have something and they wanna. Get more, get more franchisees, let 'em know what they're doing. What would you recommend, um, as the first kind of types of content to put out there? Founder content.
Joel Kleber:Yeah. I think, I think long form content if a founder could actually interview the franchisees long form. I've seen some people start to do this. I think it's really, really powerful. Um. Obviously they're gonna be happy franchisees doing it, but I just think long form content, especially because, um, you know, it's a big decision for people to buy a franchise and they, people think everyone's got a short attention span. And that is true in a way, but if you're investing all your money into this thing, you've got a long attention span. So making sure you interview all your franchisees, whether it be out on location with them, or you could do remote even. It's up to, up to people like that. Um, I, the other one I do, I do think going out and actually showing what they do on a day-to-day basis and trying to show that in some sort of vlog style is a really good. Key of dif point of difference. I don't think enough people actually show what is it actually like being a franchisee. Every brand has the three minute testimonial on their website where it's really flashy B-roll, um, it's really well produced and, but like that doesn't show the true franchise experience. There's no real meat in that. So I think PE that's gone, I, I think having a three minute testimonial on your, on your website homepage, that's a, you know, that's fine, but people want way more beyond that. And then obviously the founder himself, I think the founder should always have a, um. Like a personal brand piece or some sort of interview with themself, whether it be FAQs about the system, how things actually work, being really transparent about why they do things a certain way. In Australian franchise, anyway, everyone hides everything, so it's always sitting behind NDAs. You can't find anything really substantial on people's websites, whereas in American franchises actually find you guys to be really transparent. Like Rolling sas, Augusta Lawn Care, the two I look at, they have full financials and stuff on their webpage and in Australia our FALs will be like, oh no, you can't do that. Can't do that. But. I think that's really, that's really good. I think franchising needs a lot more transparency around it. In Australia, it's sort of, it's, there's probably more negative feeling when you say the word franchise to someone on the street generally would be, you'd get the term it's a scam, or they take all your money or they take 40% of your income. That's just the general right. General feeling from people over here.'cause we get smashed in the media. Unfortunately, even though franchising has a lot of good for a lot of people, the media just smashes it. So you've gotta be as transparent as possible about everything online to build that trust so that the person who does think that originally can look at the content and go, well, hang on, I'm wrong about this whole thing. I'm gonna go further. Yeah,
Guy Coffey:yeah, yeah. I, I've seen, and I've, you know, I've just, because my son's in Australia and I talk to Doug a lot, and, um, Americans are, are. How do I say this? I am American, so I can say this is like we're a little bit more. Braggadocious, but like, we'll talk about our stuff as, as much as we want. Whereas Australians are a little bit more closer to the chest. Even if they have something to brag about, they won't. Yeah. Not like an American would. Right. Well,
Joel Kleber:you, yeah, you way better. So you're way better at promoting yourself. And I think that's what people here don't do enough. And um, that's, we've sort of taken them all off. But yeah, Amer Americans are far more promotional and far, and Australia's a real problem. Tall Poppy syndrome. So tall Poppy syndrome. Or you know, Brits are the same, whereas Americans are generally, you go for it and you go do it. Whereas Australia wants to sort of pull you down, right? So you can tell everyone about franchise ads all the time, and you put an ad up with someone saying, you know, I went from making 50 grand a year to 300 grand a year. Then the first comment you'll see is scam. No, you didn't giving 50% any money to Jim. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So they're trying to tear that person down, right? Right. So that's generally the Australian attitude we sort of come up against. So the best sort of disinfectant that in a way is just to have long form, full transparent stuff about your system online. And the people actually wanting your business who are gonna invest a bit of time to research and to learn about it will find that and realize it's not the case. And that, um, that's a good opportunity for 'em.
Guy Coffey:Yeah. Yeah. I, I think your point about the, the, it's the same in America. It's six to nine months generally for someone to go from like, oh, maybe I'll do this to moving forward. That's a long sales process. And we have a saying here, um. Uh, time is the killer of all deals, right? So, you know, that's if you have a pure horsepower salesperson, they wanna close that deal as fast as possible, but you're not gonna rush someone into a, you know, if they're doing a QSR here or something like that, it's a million bucks, right? So like, you don't want someone making a very quick decision on an investment like that. So it's like who has the content to keep that lead warm and interested. Over that period of time is gonna have the advantage over a competing brand that doesn't have anything besides their glossy website and canned testimonials or something like that.
Joel Kleber:That's right. And the buyer. The buyer, the buyer journey has completely changed. And every three weeks we have anywhere from 90 to 120. New franchise is in training and I have a good chat to 'em.'cause they all know you from the videos, they've all listened to it, and they come up to you and they tell you and they just, the discovery journey they go on is so different now to what it used to be. Right. So back in the day. Acquire the website, get an information pack, meet the franchisor, and then they're in training or that's it right now, they're going to chat Chip t and asking, is buying a gyms mowing franchise a good idea? Gimme a comparison table between gyms, mowing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're researching that. Then they're coming in and then they're actually, you know, I had of guy tell me that Jim's mowing, um, CHADIS said buying Jim's mowing was a good idea. So he came to training because of that. Um, so that, that's happened. And then in Reddit for, for example now, 'cause we're a big brand, someone might go, I'm thinking of buying a Jim's laundry services franchise in Reddit. And the people have got no idea about franchises can come in and then. Put all their 2 cents in and, and really negative, negatively influence that conversation. Facebook groups is another one too. We've got really big finance groups in Australia where people might go, I'm thinking about buying Jim's money. Is it a good idea? And then, as you can imagine, 'cause it's a negative thing in Australia, franchising, you know, you get smashed. So that's why the content for us does so good, because people will have it in an idea and. People are trying to talk 'em out of it, but they're watching all this stuff and there's so much volume offered and transparency in it. They're going, this cannot be right, and then they actually go further and do the investigation process. And I hear that from people in training saying, you know, my friends taught me out of gyms, or I didn't know much about franchising. I thought it was the scam, but I just got into the podcast and listened to all the YouTube content and there's just so much transparency and honesty about it. I thought there's actually something to this. Then I inquired. And then I went into it and went to the observation day and heard there was complete opposite. So that's where it's been really good for us just to sort of counteract people who've got their heart set or they've got their mindset on doing a business. And it just offsets all those detractors and those negative people got no idea about being a franchisee in your system. Um, it just really offsets those opinions.
Guy Coffey:Yeah, especially the long form. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's easy to, uh, make something look good in a short. Or a clip or something like that. But when it's a long form and they hear the conversation, it's so hard to hide deception and those kind of things i I that you're not doing anyway.
Joel Kleber:I agree with you 1%. I always say the time gear, I say it's, it's very hard to lie in a long form. Video content episode. Right. Or a podcast. And that's why we do 'em.'cause it's very hard for people to hide that. And, and in those interviews I always ask, what's your most challenging experience be? Or if they say something that like, mate, we had a guy last week, say my franchise order at the start was not very good at all. Didn't support me. Right. Most brands would then cut that, cut that out. But I said no, we'll keep that in there.'cause we obviously wanna be as transparent as possible. We don't remove anything from it as well. And people do appreciate that transparency and they come in training and say, I can't believe how honest it was or this episode resonated, n 'cause he said this, or you guys didn't try and sell it like this. All that sort of stuff. So.
Guy Coffey:Yeah. Authenticity, uh, shines through. Like you can, it does. But brands say they wanna be more
Joel Kleber:authentic. Yeah. And they just don't, and you can then they have to get the video approved by legal or has to go through seven approvals. We're gonna cut this, we're gonna cut that, we're gonna cut that. And they say, well, we wanna be authentic. It's like, no, you don't. Because that 'cause you, you're getting rid of all the actual true experience.'cause running a, a franchise or running a business is not easy as, as people would know. There's ups and there's downs and there's, you want people to come in to know that that's actually gonna be the case. You don't want someone coming in, going, I'm gonna walk in, I'm gonna make you a million dollars. I'm not gonna have to do anything at all. Right. So you wanna be really transparent about the systems and it gives, it's, it's almost like a filter in a way to give you better candidates too, because everyone's going, we want high quality franchise leads, but you don't, you don't put anything online. Talking about what is a high quality lead or what's the actual reality of running the business? And we found that the more open we are, the better the people are, um, and the better the prospect are, um, coming to the system.
Guy Coffey:It makes sense. I'm curious because I know you are, dive into the data a lot. One of the, as you said, you know, these ideas, we did some of that with our system. When I'm gonna be doing another one, we are gonna lead with this, but um, in terms of viewership. It seems to me like the behind the scenes of a here's a day in the, the life of a Jim's cleaning service. Here's a day in the life of a franchisee of Jim's mowing. And that, you know, you see the guy, you know, loading up the mowers on the truck in the morning or, or whatever. And then someone that's looking at this as, I'm gonna do this semi absentee and I'm gonna, I'm not gonna be out there doing this. It depends on the, the brand, but what, what are you seeing as. Most viewed videos? Is it something with Jim? Oh, doing the q and a? Yeah. Or is it the vlog in the, in the, in the day, in the life up, the,
Joel Kleber:the most viewed video, the most viewed ones I get the most views is literally the gym. The gym q and a and TikTok, they're, um, they're very rough. Um, it's literally, I don't edit anything. I get ne I get 20 negative questions and then go, Jim, what about this? What about this? What about this just shoots off the hip. And then that's the video, right? But some of them get like 200,000, might get a hundred thousand or 150 K views or 50 K views. And I've had people in training saying they've come in from TikTok. Right? So that wouldn't have been unheard of three years ago. Right. So organic TikTok videos are being the thing that people are actually seeing to plant the seed. And then they come and look into us more and they literally tell me in training it was, I watched all the videos of Jim on TikTok where he answered my question or this and that. And that's been the actual thing that's got him into training this organic, this organic, um, q and a of the founder. So that's been really good 'cause it's low effort and plus it suits Jim, Jim doesn't like doing videos overly much. He's very introverted, so, and he loves q and a format, doesn't like scripts, doesn't like anything else besides that. So it works for him too. But, um, it's weird how that's been one that, that gets the most views as well. So, um, the, the organic TikTok stuff? Yeah. Just with that platform and then. The day on the road stuff is generally the most impactful, um, because when you are, when you, we shoot for eight hours, but we condense it to an hour long day. But the thing that people find the best is those when they're driving from job to job and we talk in the car and, you know, it's, they're trying to drive on the road and they give a really good. Generally an answer about what they're doing, and people find that really impactful as well. We're actually trying to do more of those with our franchisees. And then the long form podcast, they don't get a world of views, but the people who are watching the gym's podcast are interested in being a franchisee. They're not, they're not, um, there to be entertained. They're there to be educated. So, you know, an episode might get 600 views or 400 views. But imagine I said to a franchisor, Hey, you've got 400 people watching an interview with a franchisee for at least 14 minutes based on retention, you know? Yeah. And, and that's all organic. You don't have to worry about it. So, um, yeah, that's the way I look at it as well. But definitely organic TikTok, for whatever reason at the moment, um, that's the one that's working for us.
Guy Coffey:Wow. That's, I would not have expected that. Like we, we didn't do much on TikTok. I think I'm, I still have that thought in my head that it's, you know, it's, it's Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok is for dances and stuff like that. Obviously wrong. Well, the ages skewing
Joel Kleber:the ages, skewing older from all the, from the data. So, you know, 35, 40 year olds are, are strong for their. Average person's like four hours a day on that, right? So if you've got, it's pretty, you know, you might have a 35, 40-year-old person's sitting on there, obviously not much to do. So maybe they are looking for an opportunity and um, right, they're just scrolling through content. And the great thing is social media now, gee, it's just move to the interest space, sort of, um, system. So the amount of followers you have doesn't really matter. So if it's got, it's, it's a really good bit of content and that person's been showing interesting, starting a business or whatever it is, um, if you've got really good content, you, you will generally find them.
Guy Coffey:Nice. Nice. It puts a, um. I imagine it takes a load off the salespeople as well because they can, they have a lot of content to, to point to and things like that. Yeah. Well that's when I'm, you're getting,
Joel Kleber:you're right, ge um, that, that's when I thought, that's when I was looking on reflection. Our Fran, we've got 280 franchisors and they do their own sales, so 280 franchisors. They're essentially supporting the franchisees and also do this, doing the selling, and they would spend. Maybe the bare minimum on Facebook ads, maybe a, you know, a directory or something like that. But what I've found, what we've done in inadvertently was my original plan. We created so much content for 'em. So when people were looking, um, at, by being a franchisee within, they would stumble upon all the videos and stuff in the background. The franchisor wouldn't have to do anything. They were doing their, you know, follow ups and stuff like that, but the person was getting educated without them really knowing it by consuming all the content as well. And now that all the franchisors have it in all their, their marketing materials, so they've got all these mountain of assets, which they wouldn't have, they don't have to pay for that. We've, that we've created a head office that they can use for their, for their divisions. And I'm constantly. Interviewing all their franchisees every week. So we do that from, as a service of national office as well. So we're creating, um, video content for the franchisors without them having to pay anything, which has been, um, a big unlock for us as well.
Guy Coffey:Wow. Okay. Use of the, we have, do you guys have national ad funds and Yeah. Yeah, we have the branding fund.
Joel Kleber:Yep. Correct. Yep.
Guy Coffey:Yeah. And is that, does that fund some of the, the, you know, the team and the equipment and time? Yeah, the brand fund pretty,
Joel Kleber:yeah, the branding fund pretty much funds all of it. So the branding funds used for promotion of the brand and all of our content's a mixture of stuff. It's not just franchise related stuff, it's a B two, B2C. There's a whole bunch of different elements to it, which promote the brand. So yes, the branding fund does most of it.
Guy Coffey:Okay. So for someone with 20 units here, something like that, you would recommend start? Start doing interviews with the founder. Uh, they can do it basically with the equipment that's probably in their pocket or their purse. Yeah. Phone's fine. Phone's fine. Yeah. Yeah.
Joel Kleber:I've seen a lot, I've seen a lot of guys in Australia now sort of taking what we're doing and this, staying on the phone, they need a cover of the DGI marks and, and that's it. But that's all you really need. And I think phone footage is great because it has a little bit more authenticity to it than the well polished stuff. Um, but the thing is I think, I think people control wanna control. Um, what's put out too much then there's a lot of cutting and, and get rid of this and get rid of that. And I think that that sort of slows things down. So I think just being, being a bit more, you know, courageously for your, your content decisions, um, can really help. And I got a bit a kickback in the early days when I was doing that because my whole thing was about being transparent about what we do to offset any negativity. So we talk openly about fees. Hey, if you wanna be a franchisee anymore, you can pay five grand and walk away. And our franchisees originally didn't like that, but, um. You know, I sort of said to him, well, look, they can do that. And that's a really good part to, to get out there because a lot of people sort of think, well, am I locked in for 20 years or am I locked in for 10 years? These are things that they don't know that we actually have in the system. So you've gotta be transparent about it all. And once they saw the results in regards to the numbers and their increasing in their region and stuff, they sort of let me do what we could do. And we don't get it wrong all the time. Like Jim's a straight shooter and, and probably too honest sometimes, but we've just found that that's been, been our model. But um, yeah, if you're starting up with 20 or 10 units, I think, um. Investing in a media person. Um, I remember Gary v crushing a book when he said, when you start a company, you've got four people. And he said, one of them should be a videographer. And I really took, okay. I took that to heart. And I think that's really, really true because there's a great example, Gary in America, you'd probably know him, Mike, Andy and, um, Mike. Andy is, yeah. Gua
Guy Coffey:Lawn character. Gua Lawn
Joel Kleber:Care. Right. He's got probably one of the biggest personal brands in franchising. I think he spends 1.6 million us on his content team. So he has 10 full-time in his media team and that video contents the marketing across his five businesses. But, um, he started back, I think seven, maybe eight years ago, and you can see his first videos online, which is literally just a phone him against the wall talking about how to five tips to grow a lawn care business. Right? And from there it's just absolutely scaled and become a machine. But yeah, I think phone just start. Be consistent and you'd be surprised what happens and how many people actually watch it. And that's the thing. What, um, franchise probably don't understand enough of is that, um, it's just, it's, it's out there for forever and that it's gonna, that video you make three years ago is gonna keep delivering for you three years later. So a lot of people see content as a cost. I always see it as an investment because that video from six years ago from our Darren Road series, for example, back in 2019, I've still got people citing that in training. It's been one of the main things that got in there from six years ago. So you always gotta see it as a, as an investment and, um, it's not a cost and that investment will hopefully deliver your return and build that trust needed, uh, for years to come.
Guy Coffey:Yeah, it, it's, it lives on there for, whether it's on YouTube or wherever. Um, that video that you shot in 2019 could have made a sale last month That's right. In 2025. That's
Joel Kleber:exactly, and I haven't calculated exactly, but that video has definitely influenced probably more than at least 2 million, 3 million in, in sales for sure.
Guy Coffey:All right. All right. Well, I th this is a really big subject, and I know we have to kind of wrap this up, but I know that you are, um, one of those people that I, uh, I see and I'm like, oh, what's he doing in ai? Because I know that's a, a real interest area for you. Yeah. Um, and with ai. Uh, I, I go down the path and I use, use it not to the, the fullest extent. And, and I understand what people are doing in the beginning and they keep talking and it goes right over my head. So, but I even saw that you made an AI agent of Jim himself. Yep. And, uh, how, how was that? And it was that just like a goof. Or are you using that somehow?
Joel Kleber:No, we, we did, we use it, our actual franchisors now put that into their initial inquiry email. So when a franchisee inquires, they go have a chat with Jim. And the great thing about it is, is um, I can actually see all the chats, so I can see what people are asking, that being a franchisee. And it's a lot of questions that I wouldn't have thought of. And then we can create content from that. So it's an American company called delphi.ai. I've always had this vision 'cause we've done so much content with Jim over the years, like we've got terabytes of, of content with Jim. How can I actually use this content to be useful? I always sort of thought, well, if he does eventually kick the bucket, which won't be a, you know, for 25 years or something, we've got this, all this training data, which we can make a digital avatar of Jim and Chuck out a hologram and comes up and it's gonna be pretty accurate'cause we've got all this stuff, but it's called delphi.ai and basically it's a, it's a living knowledge base of yourself. So you put in all the stuff that you've done, um, you know, YouTube podcasts, you can click Slack, slack chats, you upload your X profile, whatever it is, and it converts it into tokens. And then obviously, um, that information then can be accessed by someone chatting with it. So his digital twin is trained on, I think it's 1.6 million words of content. And, um. You can also, it doesn't pull the answer from outside of the knowledge base, so it only sticks to that. So it doesn't make up stuff. Um, you know, so it's all from his knowledge and if you can't answer a question, he says, I can't answer that. And we get a flag saying, your Delphi got stuck and couldn't answer this. And we can put a manual answer in. But, um, that's, that's been really, really good for us. And I can actually see all the chats. We on our website and we actually, at one stage we had a live version of an avatar come up, so you could actually have go on a call with it. And like you're sitting there right now, Gary, you'd come up and I'd ask you a question and the AI avatar would start talking to me. So that's, that's stopped at the moment. They're gonna re relaunch that when they're a bit more happy, the technology. But at the moment, people are using it and, um, they're having like 30, you know, 30 minute, 2020 sort of prong conversations with it. Um. Regarding being a franchisee. And the great thing about it's too that the answers actually cite the source. So for example, if it gets pulls an answer from four different places, one might be a YouTube video, one might be his book, one might be a podcast. I can click out to that and go, go to it as well. But um, that's been a really good one 'cause it's not just your typical chat bot, which has. Trains, it's on your website and that's it. So it's got all this different stuff and people are gonna ask it a whole variety of questions and it does a pretty good job. And then if anything gets stuck, I sort of collate 'em and give 'em to Jim and say, what's your answer here? And he gives them back and we upload it again. But it's pretty big in, um, in America, like a lot of the, um, the people in private equity and some big people there just getting these things done because when they're not available, their staff can access their digital twin. What would Brian do? Well, I've got this situation, Brian, what would you do in this situation? Right. And they can ask, it can get a pretty good answer as opposed to having an email, the founder, so a lot of people are setting these things up. So the technology, um, is called Delphi ai. There's a few of them. Are coming out. Um, but like, it's a really cool concept, I think. Like, so for example, gee, you are doing all these podcasts, right? So how can you maximize the value of that? There's so many different things that AI can help you repurpose it with now, but you could upload all these, for example, into your delphi.ai and you could have the gee coffee. Phi ai and people can pay like a 10 month dollar a month subscription, for example, to access your knowledge or chat with you at any time. And that's started, that's only trained on what you've said in your podcast. Sure. Interviews or whatever you've given it. So I think it's a really cool wow, um, thing to have in place. And, um, it's quite affordable, um, for the access to technology you get.
Guy Coffey:Really? Yeah. Do they know that they're talking to ai?
Joel Kleber:Yeah, they, it's clear, very clear, yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, but, so they've actually, the video avatar, the company wasn't that happy with it, so they've actually pulled it back and they're gonna relaunch it back when it's better again. So, I know, um, Hagen just released the live avatar, but they, because there's a delay in processing, so it's not a real time thing. So you talk to. That's the process that then we'd come back and I thought it was pretty good, but it, you could definitely tell. But now you, you can talk with our one on a phone call, so if you go over the phone call and talk with it, um, you can talk with Jim or you can do the chat one, but the chat is really, really good. Um, but I think it's a great thing for, um. Just for people in general to do, like, people are using it for situations. Like if, um, they wanna live on like their digital, digital memory or who, who they are as well for their kids or something. They're, they're getting these things and they're putting all their notes and all their things from over the years into it as well. So that's like a digital living memory as well.
Guy Coffey:Wow. All right. Well I'll definitely check into that. I saw that and I was like, I wonder how they're using that. Yeah. And that's brilliant. So very cool. Uh, you, you know, my, um. We have a, a construction services company down in Arizona and we have, um, AI for phone. Yeah. You know, the chat and, but we can see it real time. And yesterday was at the American Thanksgiving holiday and my wife was just on it and. She was watching this chat and the, and the, the, the potential client, and these are kind of big ticket items, you know, um, was like, is this a bot?'cause I don't wanna talk to ai. And so she just interrupted that chat and she is like, now this is Stephanie. We can talk right now. Wanna hop on a call? Yeah. It's a we one,
Joel Kleber:isn't it? Yeah, I have that as well. We have, we have companies here who put it right up front saying, you're talking to an ai. If you wanna talk, you know, continue let us know. Some people care and some people don't. But it's gonna be an interesting one to see just the actual, you know, how do people react to knowing if it's an AI or if degenerative AI using marketing, like what's the reaction gonna be? Or does it help your brand or hurt it? So yeah, it's an interesting time. We're sort of, we get pitch all the time as you imagine, Gary, with our call center, we take like 600,000 calls a year and we've been showing it to Jim and stuff and it's just for us, for our uses anyway. We just don't think it's quite there yet as well.'cause we've got, um. You know, we've got, we've gotta get things right for our franchisees.'cause the, the lead that goes to the franchisee, if there's an error with it or anything like that, it causes a lot of issues in, in discontent. Yeah. So, um, it's still for us, not there, but, um, it's very exciting and I have seen it for businesses which don't have like a big franchise network work really, really well. So it's exciting. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's, it's another two to three years. It, most companies will have to be using it in some way.
Guy Coffey:Yeah. Yeah. The, the, uh, yeah, the, the, the tide has started so it's not going away. No, it's not. So you might wanna get good at it.
Joel Kleber:Well, the one that, the one that blew my mind was the, um, if anyone saw it, the Google Gemini three. And, um, that has, it's released this new thing, which might sound simple, but they have this infographic function now. So you can basically upload your data. It produces, if, if you're on LinkedIn all the time, you see all these cheat sheets and things like that. Sure. And they're, they're manually made by someone on five. Right. And it can be expensive in time consuming, but the new thing from Google can literally make one of those things, get all the words spot on in high detail. Um, and that's only, that's developed in probably like six months to a year. So it's amazing how quickly these things are going. And, um, it's just moving too quick. Like there's a new release every week and, and, um, the keep ups quite, quite hard. But yeah, there's so many tools out there for people, like if you're a, a 10 to 20 unit founder as well, if you invest a bit of time in learning how to use AI to actually. Help you repurpose your content and really help distribute it, which you can. Um, that can really be a good unlock for you as well. And you can probably, might pretty much do the job of two to three people, um, at a smaller level now,
Guy Coffey:which is super important.'cause at that level, you know, I always, I don't know if it's the same there, um, but you know, the. The area between 20 and 40 units is kind of a danger area.'cause you have initial capital, you're probably not royalty, self-sufficient yet. Yep. And um, you've got a team that you need to have to support that. So you know the efficiencies there, I imagine no matter what size you wanna be efficient, but there it's like make or break sometimes. So if you can do that, um. Or, or have someone on your team that's really good at it. Something like that. Yeah, absolutely.
Joel Kleber:It definitely helps. Everybody
Guy Coffey:needs a Joel. Everybody needs a Joel. Well, that's the thing,
Joel Kleber:like I, Jim, I'm obsessed with it. Like I love it. Like I, all day I listen to like, um, marketing Against the Grain from HubSpot I think is awesome. It's a really good one. Um, just listening to this sort of stuff and via osmosis, like I don't pay attention the whole time, but by osmosis you sort of, you're learning it and then you start experimenting with it and then trying to implement it and then, um. It sticks, but, um, we actually teach it in training now. So we have a, we have our new franchisee training. I have a social, I teach social media now, ai, and that's only a new thing after the last two years. So we show them Chatt, BT we give them example prompts, what it can actually do. And the adoption rate's been amazing. So two years ago, or a year and a half ago when we're doing it, who, who, who's used? Um, Chatt. BT You might have get five or 10 hands. Now I get everyone in the room, so, you know. Okay. It's, I think it's had like been the, it had 800 million users after two months or something like that. It's the quickest. Adoption of anything in, in, in the, um, ever, ever. Yes. So it's amazing, right? So, um, you know, it's, it's sort of a non-negotiable now, sort of. I know some people might be very, I don't like technology or I don't wanna do this, but I think it's becoming something where you've just gotta really, really have a crack and do it. And the great thing with AI is that the prompting principles of how you can actually use it doesn't just apply to using pic tea. It can be taken to court or, or to Gemini or whatever you want to use. So getting right, getting the basics right and learning them. Regardless of what you're gonna use, um, can apply everywhere as well.
Guy Coffey:Yeah, yeah. I've seen the advice, you know, get good at one of them.'cause a lot of the tools that you can use in that one, you're gonna be able to use in other ones and you'll get familiarity in how to work around things. So, absolutely. Joel, thank you so much. I know it's Saturday morning there. It's Friday afternoon here. Um, so thanks for, for waking up and taking time outta your family time and sharing this knowledge with, uh, my, my audience is mostly American, so, um, but we're a global, you know, franchising is global, so I, I imagine it'll be watched everywhere else too. So just wanted to thank you so much and wishing you all the best, uh, continued success.
Joel Kleber:Uh, thanks Steve. Thanks for having me on and reaching out and let me know. About the Doug. That made my day when you told me that, so I didn't know that. So, um, appreciate you doing that. And I've had a look at your content, great work on what you are doing as well with your personal brand, that that's ahead of the curve with most people. So keep it up and I'll keep an eye on your journey as well. Sounds great.
Guy Coffey:Thanks Joel. Nice, thanks. That wraps up today's episode of the Franchise Scale Up Show. This gave you a strategy you can put into play. Please share it with one founder who needs the help. You might save them months of pain. If you're ready to go deeper, whether it's building your support infrastructure, accelerating territory sales, or preparing for private equity, go to gee coffee.com. That's G-U-Y-C-O-F-F. EY and book a free franchise growth strategy call. I only partner with founders who are committed to scaling without losing control. If that's you, I'd love to connect. Until next time, protect your vision. Move fast and scale smart. I'm Gee, coffee Talk soon.